Currently running an indy. What is a good acreage to aim for before switching to techer? And what would be a good bpt to have before switching?

I am actually an old Earth 2025 player returning from a long hiatus. Haven't played since 2005. I seem to remember the basics of the game but have also forgotten a fair deal.

I hope you are still Monarchy, or Theocracy (or some government for which Techer works).

I'd say a good goal would be ~2k acres, do a batch explore and build labs. Convert the Indy to Labs and you should be on your way to start growing / teching.

the best techers ive talked to dont even do an indy to techer, they just go straight into teching. maybe an initial 100 indies or so but with that at 100 percent turrets you can build up to between 1-2k research centers and then start teching.


so the earlier the better.

Kingme: Yep. Still a Monarchy :) Ok, will aim for 2k acres.

deezyboy: Interesting. I will have to do that next time!

Thanks for the replies guys.

BRAIINNSSS

Tech start could be difficult. I recommend beginning with farms then switch to tech. I've calculated several methods for startup strategies and so far it seems farms give the largest income per turn during the first 300 turns. It's difficult to generate $ for buildings if you go straight to tech start. And the turns you use to tech 30-50 tech per turn, you could have used later when you're teching 3k a turn.

What bushel price did you use to come up with that?

$29 // Private market price

And you found that to be better than a indy startup?

What prices did you figure for that? Hopefully not private market prices, because that's not what you'd be selling on.

I understand. I did the math some time ago on a separate forum. During the first 300 turns Commies net more per turn than any other govt, but farmers cash more per turn (that's selling each bushel @ $29). It's the fact that commies can only place 45% of their production on market for sale.

For those of you too lazy to read the entire post, the above information applies only to the first 300 turns and in the instance of a player looking to maximize INCOME (cash) during their first 300 turns with the intentions to change govt -farmers lead the pack.

It's really a matter of #s which can all be calculated:

Typical 300 turn setup [ BOTH GOVT M ]

3500 A
100 CS (30 BPT) sqr(3500/4) = 30
3400 Farms

3500A
100 CS (read above)
3400 IC

Farms formula w/ $29 bushel [[ Reference A ]]
3400*5.3*1*29(no market commission on private market) = $522580 per turn
3400*5.3*1*34*.94 = $575919
3400*5.3*1*39*.94= $660613

IC formula w/ $150 turret
'At 100% production, one industrial complex can produce: 1.86 (troops or jets or turrets), 0.4 tanks, or 0.62 spies.' [[ Reference B ]]
3400*1.86*150 = $948600 *.45 (maximum of 45% can go on market) = $426870 *.94 (market commission) = $401257
3400*1.86*140 = $885360 *.45 = $398412 *.94 = $374507
3400*1.86*130 = $822120 *.45 = $369954 *.94 = $347756

History on EXPRESS (turrets)
Aug 6, 08:00 Aug 6, 12:00 $144 $155 $155.00 4813
Aug 6, 12:00 Aug 6, 16:00 $135 $155 $143.08 253,544
Aug 6, 16:00 Aug 6, 20:00 $133 $140 $138.32 241,270

History on EXPRESS (food)
Aug 6, 08:00 Aug 6, 12:00 $45 $45 $45.00 7836
Aug 6, 12:00 Aug 6, 16:00 $44 $44 $44.00 20,621
Aug 6, 16:00 Aug 6, 20:00 $38 $40 $38.46 203,229

Factors not accounted for:
Production is 100% with 80% max population
Countries with ICs food consumption will be considerably higher per turn. [[ Reference C ]]

Reference A
http://wiki.earthempires.com/index.php/Game_Formulas

Reference B
http://wiki.earthempires.com/index.php/Talk:Buildings

Reference C
http://wiki.earthempires.com/index.php/Game_Formulas
(Pop * 0.03) + (Spies * 0.005) + ((Troops + Jets + Turrets) * 0.001) + (Tanks * 0.003)

This is all assuming only one sale of 45% in the first 300 turns.

Correct; but more sales, also means fewer ICs, since each scenario I gave is based on 300 turns.

Each sale on market would be 30 fewer ICs (since each sale is 1 turn to sell on market).

30 less IC's is well worth another sale.

In fact another sale would put Indy > Farmer if I had to guess. If not, a third would surely do it.

Suggestion: 3 sales extra would surely do it.

3 (turns) * 30 (IC per turn) = 90

3500 A
100 CS
3400 Farms

3500 A
100 CS
3310 IC

Farms: [[ Refer to previous posts for explanation ]]
3400*5.3*1*29(no market commission on private market) = $522580 per turn
3400*5.3*1*34*.94 = $575919
3400*5.3*1*39*.94= $660613

IC : [[ Refer to previous posts for explanation ]]
3400*1.86*150 = $948600 *.45 (maximum of 45% can go on market) = $426870 *.94 (market commission) = $401257
3400*1.86*140 = $885360 *.45 = $398412 *.94 = $374507
3400*1.86*130 = $822120 *.45 = $369954 *.94 = $347756



(3310*1.86 = 6156 turrets) (3 extra turns for market) vs. (3400*1.86 = 6324 turrets)

[# of turrets]*[turret price]*[max % on market]*[market sales commission]
Sale 1: 6156*150*.45*.94 = $390598
6156*.45 = Sold turrets (2770)
6156*.55 = Remaining turrets (3385)

3385 + 6156 = 9541 (combining unsold and new production)
Sale 2: 9541*150*.45*.94 = $605376
9541*.45 = Sold turrets (4293)
9541*.55 = Remaining turrets (5247)

5247 + 6156 = 11403 (combining unsold and new production)
Sale 3: 11403*150*.45*.94 = $723520
11403*.45 = Sold turrets (5131)
11403*.55 = Remaining turrets (6271)

6271 + 6156 = 12427 (combing unsold and new production)

12427 Turrets on hand

Conclusion:
Three sales allows the following to produce more of an income with their turret/food selling at:
$150 / $29 (commie wins)
$150 / $34 (commie wins)
$150 / $39 (commie wins)

The # of sales jumps significantly on 1st sale and then the margin decreases.
Sale 1: $390598
Sale 2: $605376 (apprx 210k jump)
Sale 3: $723520 (apprx 120k jump)

==================================================================
COMPARING vs $130 turret price
==================================================================

[# of turrets]*[turret price]*[max % on market]*[market sales commission]
Sale 1: 6156*130*.45*.94 = $338518
6156*.45 = Sold turrets (2770)
6156*.55 = Remaining turrets (3385)

3385 + 6156 = 9541 (combining unsold and new production)
Sale 2: 9541*130*.45*.94 = $524659
9541*.45 = Sold turrets (4293)
9541*.55 = Remaining turrets (5247)

5247 + 6156 = 11403 (combining unsold and new production)
Sale 3: 11403*130*.45*.94 = $627050
11403*.45 = Sold turrets (5131)
11403*.55 = Remaining turrets (6271)

6271 + 6156 = 12427 (combing unsold and new production)

12427 Turrets on hand

Conclusion:
Three sales allows the following to produce more of an income with their turret/food selling at:
$130 / $29 (commie wins)
$130 / $34 (commie wins)
$130 / $39 (farmer wins) $627050 vs $660613

It seems I overlooked the possibilities to sell more than once. Good catch Kingme.

LOL, I was gonna say. o_O

he's good like that

and blid is rudely interrupting like THAT!

I thought it about it some more-

It looks like turns 1-298: farmer outproduces (this is when commie places turrets on market)(sale 1)
299: commie outproduces (sale 2)
300: commie outproduces (sale 3)

It all changes by that 2nd sale.

So I'm curious how far back the commie can go in reducing their ICs to maximize the number of turns after their 2nd sale.

Wtf. Just sell every time you have more turrets than you need.

You keep saying Commie... but I wouldn't convert from a C/I to a techer.

This was all about switching to techer.

You would go Mono Indy > Theo Techer
or Theo Indy > Theo Techer

You would never go C/I to any form of techer, especially in express. Unless you like being inefficient.

maverickmd used to do commie starts and finished with pretty good scores.

IF you're gonna do it it would be when you plan to explore out pretty far. Like he did here and here:
http://www.eestats.com/express/oldcountry/299/91
http://www.eestats.com/express/oldcountry/279/76

so you're already limiting your max score a bit by doing that.

check out this one with a rep start (!):
http://www.eestats.com/express/oldcountry/247/3

That's interesting...
I think results would be better without going C/I, but those countries aren't bad (especially that Rep)

I just did some comparisons with my tourny and express countries.
I definitely have a much better startup with my straight tech start... i'm surprised.

Of course i'm running with much less military, but i'll take that tradeoff in express.

Another typo on my part. When I say commie I'm referring to Mon Indy. (Sometimes I think Commie and Indy are synonymous and they're not).

How do you raise $ for buildings if you're all tech start?! Your BPT must be like 10.

BPT is 60.

It's a gradual thing.

But I went with a heavy CS start (like always). I think I did like 4 turns worth of indy and the rest were labs.
You keep building your CS and do a bpt of labs whenever you can.

After selling turrets once and tech once I was able to reach 1918 acres fully built labs with 60bpt, good for me.

How many turns to get there?
And off the topic- what's the formula in which the private market caps at? I know the replenish rate formula but I know the private market stops replenishing at some point- what is it?

some of this is just way way to over thought and because of that you miss such simple things.

350 turns and I'm 50bpt(Theo) with 4k land built as 500 indy start and rest into labs... seems to work and requires nearly no thought and I leave the indys the entire set.

I also sell turrets 3x.

yay cheap tech this set

^ yeah someone already undercut the market by 250 haha.... I don't understand why people would undercut by that amount.

With the amount of effort Celphi puts in, you'd think he would be at least somewhat competent at the game. Such a shame.

What would you consider 'competent?' Top 5? Top 10? Top 15?

Competent could by interpreted in so many ways.

This is cheap?! Bus/Res/Indy

Aug 6, 16:00 Aug 6, 20:00 $3100 $3990 $3,305.38 520
Aug 6, 20:00 Aug 7, 00:00 $2999 $3177 $3,117.24 2022
Aug 7, 00:00 Aug 7, 04:00 $3177 $3199 $3,192.37 2838

Aug 6, 16:00 Aug 6, 20:00 $3100 $3787 $3,176.33 450
Aug 6, 20:00 Aug 7, 00:00 $2999 $3177 $3,124.33 2294
Aug 7, 00:00 Aug 7, 04:00 $3177 $3199 $3,194.00 2566

Aug 6, 16:00 Aug 6, 20:00 $3100 $3100 $3,100.00 470
Aug 6, 20:00 Aug 7, 00:00 $3100 $3246 $3,125.97 697

Pretty soon. 1500-49000 acres. 720 bpt .......ish.

nobody buys these tech anyway, who needs tech now?

You need to be good at finding excellent early targets (good or lucky - better lucky).

On that assumption do indies up to about 400 acres (you are going to keep most of these). Now just start building labs until you have about 600 or 700. Now you must show your grabbing skills because you want to grab on a shoestring for a short time so as to get to about 2k acres at which point it is worth starting to tech.

If things go well you will eke out enough money (one turret sale, then cash from getting the csites up) to fund building. Lucky cash from a grab or two can help. But if things don't go so great it is no disaster. You just do some tech turns earlier. It is a bit of a pain teching a dozen turns or two off a tech per turn of under 200 but I find it doesn't really matter too much. The Indies keep you going and you soon enough turn the corner.

Bpt depends on how ambitious you are and (to a lesser extent) whether you plan a switch to MBR at some point (don't, by the way, on Express). The higher your ambitions and the higher the number of csites you are going to build the easier this sort of start up is (because turns spent on csites generate cash to fund your lab building).

Reading the early tech market is also critical (and hit or miss). But heh, you are a techer so I don't have to talk market.

I can't recommend someone start grabbing before 2k, more times than not you'd be better off just exploring. Especially after you figure in military upkeep on attacking units.

It is a few hundred units so expenses aren't a whole lot. The really costly thing is the three turns, one to spy and two to hit.

But your indies are still producing so that affects matters.

In a country I am currently playing I got 150 acres (plus 22 ghosts), 200 acres (plus 75), then 500 (plus 30) acres for 7 turns (no defence) and then 300 acres (plus 120). The last hit was no longer just a few hundred units so expenses start to matter. But the jets will get regular re-use and my country is moving up from the 2k zone

One set of buildings were useful, the rest there is a cost to take down. There was a very welcome $300k with the first hit and a bit more later plus a few tech points.

And I have some enemies. :) But I have also dented some rivals.

I have done zero arithmetic but my instinct is I would need to have been very lucky to have done better exploring. Of course you don't always find the no defence guy. By the by, the range of acres when exploring seems much wider than I remember it.

I'd be concerned with retals as well.

If you can find enough zero defense countries, that don't retal. It's worth it.

for the best possible finish in history, you wanna start grabbing at 2k. for a better finish on average, you probably explore past that

Grabbing early is no big deal. Exploring while you still get decent acres makes a whole lot of sense. Another point for it is that an explore turn generates cash as well as a csite building turn. But a techer loves to grab and gets less chance to do it than other strats so I guess that's why I got into the habit. And, from experience, if it IS worse than exploring it is not much worse.

see what I told you... cheap tech.

I mean it's not like the price of tech always drops or anything. :p

Where is it, I want some!!

*look now*

Ah, so that is what "cheap" looks like.

I used to have a solid pure tech startup. It's not as tough as everyone makes it sound. Wonder what the odds are the old NA strat boards are archived somewhere.