The admins are responsible for keeping the game running and making improvements. They pay money out of their own pockets to keep this game alive. The only thing that the admins are owed is our gratitude. They don't owe us anything.

The mods though are volunteers from our own communities.

Either way, who cares about the differentiation? The point is, being open and honest in small, dying games is better than just letting things run their course. If you want a good idea of what happens when you stop responding/caring, look at Mehul and RD.

And you're so wrong about your justifications. Whenever martian chimes in on a thread, he almost always calms the situation down after a few back-and-forths.

If you are talking about the TITANS deletions or whatever, maybe if the mods posted on AT explaining the decision BEFORE the so-called cheater came to AT for sympathy, none of this would have been controversial at all.

Can you cite an example of when a mod's presence has made the situation worse? (Mickster examples will not be accepted)

Sure, the ad revenue thing might seem like nitpicking, but generally when I make a statement I like it to be true.

Hah, Mickster was so awful I changed my handle to stop being confused with him.

The admins dont really make anything. At best they cover the operating costs. They as far as I know have never taken a salary from EE. If you add up all the labor hours they are most deff in the negative. I doubt the game ould even be sold to recoup time invested. But they dit it for the love of the game.

The revenue this game makes pays for itself but not much more. A significant chunk of the revenue came/comes from Boxcar which I have donated to the wider EE project since EE started. It's drawn down for server-related costs, domains, etc.

Req is correct on all counts; no one is making anywhere near the sort of money required to recoup the time investment, even if drastically underpaid. That's why when the admins, who built this for the love of the game/community, were treated poorly (esp. slag, me after all the hacking/lying/slander) they just leave and find more rewarding and/or lucrative things to do with their time.

TAN: Any preemptive posting wouldn't have stopped timmie from coming to the forums and saying he'd received no explanation for his deletion and how he didn't understand how it had happened. And, as far as I'm aware, no one has changed their mind because of Pang and martian posting.

Evaluating things strictly on a better/worse criteria is the wrong way to view things; you have to also consider the time and effort involved, and if the improvement is worth the headache. Besides, I'll freely admit I have no examples to cite as I've not been back long enough to do so.

Instead, I put this back on you: how many situations have you seen where situations have been materially improved by communication? I've yet to see any (and two have already been referenced here), so I'm honestly curious.

Edit:
Pang, I hope you never get the impression that I'm anything but appreciative for what you've done. Earth would be dead without you, and I greatly appreciate being able to come back. Thanks.

Lol jesus christ allmighty

iccyh way to totally deflect his question and then ask him a question! LMFAO. I think at this point you want to disagree just to disagree because your argument just fell apart there. TAN is right you are wrong. End of this thread!

Off the top of my head? Well, the timmie thread is closed, Martian got the last word, and that subject is pretty much dead. The only people who are still even talking about it are TITANS and I guess now us.

Here's the last thing martian said:



Martian just publicly refuted the allegations, with double redundancy (all three mods arrived at the same conclusion independently). This will satisfy a lot of the rabble who were up in arms. You know who that explanation won't convince? The people who already made up their minds.

Another example of something that could have gotten WAY worse was when Hanlong and TC were caught cheating. Pang spent a lot of time and patience explaining everything that happened, and I suppose he didn't have to say anything if he didn't give a fluff.

Pang also was honest when he said he gave data to the Feds after they asked after that one guy shot up a school or something. He didn't have to let ANYONE know he did, but he was honest about it anyway.

I know that I've gotten into arguments before where the mods de-escalated the situation. It happens every couple of weeks actually. You just never notice it because it never turns into an issue.

Pang, I don't want to leave you with the impression that I am anything but grateful that you guys have kept this thing afloat, and I have been a public cheerleader for you in the past on many occasions. It's just the editor in me coming out that wants to correct statements like that.

Requiem: "Is it worth the time?" is a real question that needs to be answered, dude. That's something only the admins and mods can answer.

In fact, Pang did pretty much answer it by saying that admins have been driven out of the community because they bothered to try.

Pang is Arnold this is ee...
Enjoy

http://youtu.be/tO4X8_c80kg

TAN: I'm not saying the admins shouldn't do those things, I'm saying we shouldn't expect or demand it. I don't think we're disagreeing as much as you think we are, to be honest.

iccyh: there's like 2 dozen ppl worth thanking, no need for the side caveats. we know we're, in general, loved :)

my underlying opinions as to why staff-type folks don't want to put time into the game don't come from the issue du jour on AT, which are generally not a big deal, but rather from having dealt with all kinds of issues away from (or before they hit) public view. it's not a fun hobby.

but to Vic's point, to say that anyone makes $$ from ads and thus there is an obligation to respond to all player inquiries.... that isn't how games work. this is a hobby game and people do their best. I, personally, am usually so burned out from my 9-5 tech job that I don't feel like dealing with the support aspect of an old project :p Just being honest.

They weren't driven out via Mod transparency. Slagpit was driven out because he was kind of an asshole, albeit a programming asshole but an asshole none the less :)

Not sure if you knew slag. But he was as abrasive as 80 grit sandpaper on your anus.

I will admit he did bring some good things to the game: the game profile is one such thing.

I didn't say, anywhere, that the revenue is what created the social obligation. I said the act of campaigning to get us all to join your version of the game did. I was simply pointing out that, be it ever so insufficient, saying you don't get paid at all out of the game is inaccurate.

For the admins we shouldn't demand or expect it, but why not for the mods?

This is a pointless argument to have, since I think the only person who agrees with you is actually you.

As punishment, I'm going to henceforth spell lccyh with an L.

Plus you need to drink beer and watch some sports! :D

Pang: The reason I say thank you is 'cause being an admin or mod is generally a thankless job where, as you say, no one really knows what's going on 99% of the time.

TAN: I still don't know why you think that the mods should be held to a different standard simply because they're volunteers, and while I'm fine with brushing away the trolls I'm actually pissed at you now, since I put effort in to replying and you're being an ass, and I don't know what I've done to you to deserve that.

218 posts.

Bazinga.

I've put effort into replying to you as well, but that doesn't mean I'm going to continue arguing something that you're clearly never going to change your mind on. We're back to square one (why mods should be held to different standards, even though that's irrelevant to my argument), so instead of rehashing the same arguments, there's little point into continuing because we've both said what we wanted to say, and we're both not budging. You've asked why I think xyz, I've told you, you haven't changed your mind...so I'm not sure what else I'm supposed to say here.

LOL

TAN, it's a waste of bandwidth to attempt to get iccyh to comprehend....

I will step in here and defend slag because he was also a nice guy and I'm really happy he's not here because he's got a pretty good thing going IRL. He was a proud guy and often came across as more assholeish than he intended. He would admit that privately sometimes. But he did make lots of awesome stuff!

and I think the developers just all grew up/moved on and didn't feel like fighting fights they used to. I enjoyed working on EE a lot more when I wasn't developing full time :p

Yeah, like what, Pang?!

Name...fifteen...awesome things he did!

Iccyh is on coke, meth run plus he is pissed. Its all down hill.. i have seen it a thousand times. .. no names though, like pallet.

Pallet. Whatever happened to that guy?

He sobered up and started working or some fluff. I love that guy.

umm.... if memory serves.... which it usually doesn't.... thanks alcohol....

- mod tools (4)
--> mod dashboard page
--> safelisting mechanic
--> comparison tools
--> sweeping tools
- spy mechanic balancing
- war mechanic balancing
- in depth missile math analysis to deal with B&S BS from SS
- player profiles
- FFA awesomeness (4)
--> multiple country creator
--> multi-country dashboard
--> custom dashboard
--> startups
- earthquake math!
- bonus point/system rejigging after my initial bonus point system was focused entirely on integrations and not on what was actually useful to countries
- reverse engineering a crapload of formulae before Earth:2025 crashed (him among others)

and that doesn't even discuss all the mediocre/fluffty things he did too! So many contributions!!! :D jk :p

TAN, here is a brief summary of your posts and my replies:

1. Mods signed up to do "this" as part of their job ("this" being post to AT)
http://www.earthempires.com/forum/post/616151/perm
Response: AT isn't the game mods' job.
http://www.earthempires.com/forum/post/616174/perm

2. Transparency is good, volunteers are held to high standards
http://www.earthempires.com/forum/post/616195/perm
Response: Line between admins and mods is arbitrary, transparecy is fine but shouldn't be required.
http://www.earthempires.com/forum/post/616216/perm

3. Re-iteration of the volunteer point, transparency makes things better
http://www.earthempires.com/forum/post/616223/perm
Response: Transparency is more often neutral at best, and requires effort that may not be worth it
http://www.earthempires.com/forum/post/616239/perm

4. Examples
http://www.earthempires.com/forum/post/616248/perm
Response: Agreement
http://www.earthempires.com/forum/post/616258/perm

5. This is pointless
http://www.earthempires.com/forum/post/616264/perm
Response: I get pissed
http://www.earthempires.com/forum/post/616270/perm

The only thing we're disagreeing on (if we're disagreeing on anything) is that game mods, as part of their job, should be required to post to AT explaining things. That is what I said I disagreed on from the start; this is what I've been arguing against from the beginning. You've agreed that admins shouldn't have to, but you've said mods are different. You've cited examples of how transparency can make things better, but you've spent relatively little time explaining why there should be a difference between the admins and mods and how that difference justifies your difference in expectations. Most of your arguments have been tangential to this and when I've said I agree with you on those tangential points you've turned around and insulted me.

This is not a case of "we've said things and it is obvious we don't agree", if anything it is a case of misunderstanding what the actual disagreement was from the start, or possibly a case where one of us prejudged the other to make an argument where there was none. I don't think I bear much, if any, responsibility in either of those cases.

Damn that Pang for calling my bluff.... http://i.imgur.com/PGl1kS0.gif

That bastard!

wtffff

lccy, all my posts have to do with why the mods should be held to higher expectations. Here's a list:

1) Mods are basically signing a good-faith contract (not literally) to support the community.

2) Being transparent, communicative and honest is part of responsible management.

3) Not addressing direct concerns to the community due to mod action is irresponsible management, because it can foster an environment of distrust and can foment hate/conflict.

4) Those who agree to mods are agreeing to spending their free time to supporting the community - if they don't want to spend their free time doing this, they shouldn't volunteer in the first place. If they run out of time, they should simply resign so a more active mod can take their place.

5) There isn't a reason for mods NOT to spill all the beans. There's relatively few repercussions that could happen. It is in their best interests to be open and honest and build a strong, trusting relationship with the community, rather than one built on secrecy or on a need-to-know basis (which was basically the policy of the mods, more or less, in E2025).

6) Historically, I can't think of a SINGLE instance where a mod being pre-emptive has made the situation worse, rather than either stagnant or better.

7) Because of our current good modding, you don't hear about mods preventing escalations because they prevent them before they actually escalate, by and by.

8) I have more reasons that if I sat and thought about I could provide, but seriously, if the above 7 don't convince you, really nothing will, so I'm not sure what else to tell you.

oh good, the thread's gone meta.

http://youtu.be/fzX9rGlzqgw

And this is why I think you're misunderstanding me, TAN.

I don't materially disagree with you on any of these points, but I don't think that they establish a case for why mods should *always* be required to post to AT explaining themselves, as opposed to at their own discretion.

There is absolutely no reason why they shouldn't have a choice in the matter.

Edit: I'm stepping back from the phrasing I used in my first post on this thread in say this, because the easier case to make here is one of discretion as opposed to non-intervention. If this were a competition debate, I'd lose points for this, but instead of trying to score points I'm actually trying to convince you of something I think is important.

We both trust martian to do the right thing, I just don't want to tie his hands with unnecessary obligations to come onto AT with mods stuff.

Why should they have a choice? This isn't the United States of America. It's the United States of This Is Pang's Game.

There is no freedom of speech. You say something hateful/hurtful, you get banned. There is no fifth amendment - if you're accused of something by the mod, you can fess up or gtfo, no trial necessary if the admins find something bannable.

I'm not sure where you're getting this impression that the mods should have a choice in the matter. They volunteered to police the forums and the game. I suppose if it's something trivial, then fine. But by and by, they should be open about it, and especially when requested, they should spill the beans, because they have zero incentive not to.

I've provided evidence when asked about when it's direct mod intervention has worked. You haven't provided any evidence whatsoever that them having a choice is better other than simply your opinion.

Now obviously, no one is making the current mods be open and honest - they're doing that because they're smart. But imagine the paranoia on these forums if martian and the mods spoke out on AT just half as much as they currently do.

My expectation is that the admins and mods work together as a team, and that we can and should rely on their judgment about what is and isn't appropriate to post to the forums, as they have more information about a given situation than we do. That's why they should have a choice.

My preference would be to set the bar as low as possible so as to tie their hands as little as possible, as I said.

pang.. walk away.. just walk away:P
The admins and mods do work together as a team.. for the most part.
When it comes to moderation, my hands are not tied at all.. I pretty much have been given cart blanche regarding who can/cannot be a mod.
Everything I do is visible/disclosed to all the mods and the admin although there was an unfortunate incident where I had to delay disclosing it to the mods.
I have always been direct about what I can/cannot do and what I do and do not have access too (ie I can't edit the game database beyond your country name and it being deleted or not).
99% of the time messages get responded to within 24-48hours unless someone is being a complete ass or a rl situation.
Also when you've been deleted for the 5th time for the same thing and keep claiming innocence/feigning ignorance we *probably* don't want to keep arguing with you... not going to mention who that refers to recently..

The game moderators have a lot of discretion to do things as well.

As always the rout of appeal is moderator->me->pang/qz

++martian
king of the trolls ?

The mods work as a team? May I refer you here: http://www.earthempires.com/...ol-your-mods-33582#614605



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtQMttigfsE