I interpreted celphi's post as meaning player A has first strike always because player F attacking A while A is attacking E would look like co-ordination between E and F, when really F is saving his own skin. Since that would look like co-ordination, F has to wait for A to strike first to do anything.

Sorry if I put words in your mouth celphi, that's how I interpreted it.

Your fundamental flaw is that you are always assuming that if 2 countries hit the same country at the same time or similar timeframe, then it is co-ordination.

Yet you are allowing a predetermined time to pass before giving this the all clear of no co-ordination.

I think you mis interpret cherry picking and coordination as being the same thing

No, you and Warster are insinuating that...

What is cherry picking, 5 hits , 10 hits , 20hits ????? That's where is hard to decide without a time frame

Is 20 hits cping or is it team play ??

?????

You're the ones treating cherry picking exactly the same way as co-ordination.


You either let cherrypicking, kill runs etc happen, or you give every country an option to join GDI for free at the start of the set. There shouldn't be any middle ground.

C can't get involved until B is dead. So if A kills B with turns left over, A can then FS C.

I just don't get the unnecessary creation of a grey section of the rules. We can easily just eliminate the grey and inform players to join GDI.

Players on EXPRESS want this dynamic for NONGDI.
Those who don't can join GDI.

The reason they are grey, is because people abuse them when they are not 'grey'

The 'players' spoke already. Its why these rules exist.

i want a change on bonus points

No. The reason they are grey is because your rules allow workarounds and loopholes.

Well I'm done with this topic,

We tell you what situations a country will be deleted and you tell us we are wrong, yet we are the ones who delete people.

Curry, you just want rules changed to suit your little group of buddies, you don't care about anything else.

Oh and I'll pass the suggestions to qz and Martian and let them decide which direction they wish to take.


Celphi, as you are the only one who is making a decent conversation about this , feel free to message me as I won't be continuing this on the boards

You understand that what you are arguing stems from game mechanics, right? Without these mechanics, the game wouldn't exist.

People abused/exploited these mechanics in the past. Which is the reason grey area rules exist. Which is also why people lobbied to make solo servers as solo as possible.

Take DR abuse for example.

Its a game mechanic but easily abusable. So when someone reports it, we have to spend time sifting through news and comparing. Thats why it's a grey area. We have to decide if it is intentional abuse or just someone trying to play fairly.

You're actually retarded. Celphi and I are arguing THE EXACT SAME THING.

You have a severe inability to think logically.

And comments like that is why I disregard everything u post

After reading your replies, I don't expect you to comprehend situational analysis anymore.

And I don't give a fluff about your opinion of me.


Have a nice day

Great discussion, for sure!

And I'd like to +1 h20's idea on changing bonuses. They really should be adjusted on EXPRESS.

I'll +2 that one!

why do you capitalize express whenever you refer to it. it is a little condescending but im not sure why.

Thread TLDR;

2 Non-GDI countries have the ability to co-ordinate offline to kill another Non-GDI country and won't be deleted if they wait a few hours.

2 Non-GDI countries with no co-ordination can unknowingly kill another Non-GDI country at the same time and be deleted for it

do you check the news before you grab a country for DR so you dont get fluffty returns?

can you not check the news before you randomly kill a country so you dont get deleted?


i have no side in this, but it doenst seem too unreasonable.

1

I'm not disputing the fact that you can easily check the news, but coincidences happen and have happened. If the mods are going to enforce a rule on this then they better cover all scenarios to which it would be implicated.

But they seem to be quite content with the existence of all this gray area surrounding this issue.

i would counter with dont get mad when you try to grief some random sap for no reason if the mods decide to grief you right back!

only problem i could see here is if someone watched the news and hit random people after a KR just to get people deleted, but that seems a bit extreme.

+1 on Celphi's comments and suggestion
+2 Netsquash's opening few posts....good points regarding game play
+1 h2o

Since it has been stated several times just in this post that "the Express players" asked for these changes, and that seems to be the response each time we push back on something, I do not recall requesting the removal of formal alliances. However, I do recall a bunch of surprised Express players when that change occurred. Ive grown to like it, and have coordinated some NHP's, but that seems to be the general response each time a critical change or decision is made. In essence, we who spend our time playing at all hours of the day and night want the game fluffed up to our specifications.

Sorry, didn't mean to say coordinated. Negotiated.

You are going to have to find a way to be predictable as mods...all as one....in your decision making. Getting back on topic, protect the GDI'ers, which are usually your netters or people trying to learn, and let the non-GDI'ers and warmongers, the risk takers, get whatever they are seeking.

If you found a dollar on the ground in RL, you'd pick it up without any hesitancy. If you find a country in a game that has wreaked havoc on others and only needs a few more hits to meet his demise, let a person pick up that kill and make the game better for that week.

You have tough jobs ahead of you....thanks for doing it and good luck.

what about the people who forget to join GDI? should they be thrown to the wolves because they made a hasty retal early in the morning? i dont think not being in GDI should be a virtual death sentence. be careful of the precedent you wish to set here. a couple people band together and kill all the non GDI members and bots and what do you have left on a server that is getting smaller by the set?


i personally think CPing is cool rules wise, but a fluff move in every other aspect. however, that viewpoint is coming from my clan server experience and finishers that save turns just to get kills. but like i said, be careful of the precedent you set. it is grey area and will be difficult to enforce arbitrarily on a case by case basis.

No one has answered my question in regard to cping, what's the cutoff before cping becomes team play

Say, the target has under 50 civis left, from killing experience it's usually when I got picked off and lost the kill to cping 😉

Koh remember as a mod I can only see the news, so at how many attacks before it isn't a cp.

But your example means basically 10 hits at most

5 hits with BR, 10 GS, or make it 12 to 15 hits, I guess that's a starting point we can work on 😉

Can easily be fixed by having all countries enter free GDI at the start of the set. Leave GDI at your own peril and be able to rejoin if no attacks were made in the interim.

can we leave it to Mod's discretion when one is caught for team play i.e. in killing or not.

The issue will not end even if we define a predetermined amount of hits or duration which has been been discussed above. Anyone can take advantage of the pre-set rules, especially those that have been here long enough to know the in's and out.

If that said so, there can also be team play in market manipulation.. transfer of cheaper tech, buyouts coordinated externally and etc. No one can stop this.

We need to focus on the "REAL" problems

1. DR.
2. Bonus (apart from getting GDI free, its rather useless unless you change the % effects on the bonus gained)

:)

Could as Curry said, or just be responsible and remember to join. I used to forget every week but would remember just as I came out of protection. I was all-x cashing then so was lucky a few times. The GDI link is not so visible to me. When my brother played, he also forgot to join nearly ever set and came out of protection firing lol. He was always in a war.

Off topic, but Ford I made a comment on one of the threads about your having a lot of spies to be a land farm. Did you read it?!

I'm fairly certain I responded to your post about my spies. You will have to find it though, I post a bit more than you lol.

Seeing as I was the mod on point when pushing for alliance changes, I'm going to have to call you on your personal experiences as it relates to those changes. I started a thread asking for suggestions pretty much the moment I became a mod for express, and the overall consensus was 'get rid of tech allies', followed by a huge range of responses on what to do with off/def allies. I forwarded all of that info to qz, along with my personal opinions, and he decided to get rid of all allies. Yes, the all or nothing approach was somewhat surprising, but that discussion had been public and ongoing for weeks before action was taken. If people were surprised, they weren't paying attention.

As far as mods being consistent, I think we've been incredibly consistent. Cherry-picking has been a clearly deletable offense for years, for example. A lot of coordination-related rulings have followed the same formula, and have been pretty darn clear as to our reasoning. Sometimes we disagree with each other, and often we disagree with you guys. If people are really upset, they/we can defer to martian for final decisions. What you all need to remember, however, is that your wishes as players don't always fit with the admin's vision for the game. I know many of you don't like that fact, but that's more or less how it is at the moment. One big example is outing cheaters/violators. Qz doesn't want to do that, and the fact that warster started posting basic info here was a serious bone of contention among the mod/admin team.

And yeah, I'm with warster: What is cherry-picking? Why should we set a hardline number for something like that? One person's CPing is another's Assisting.

I'll make my examples this set... and then the arguments can begin when i'm deleted wrongfully.


As someone said earlier.. you dont have GDI and seek the thrill of the gamble / you like to war... then let it be... those who want to netgain get GDI


is it really so hard to understand. Nothing needs to be fixed.... mods just need to keep their hands away from the non GDI portal unless there is strong evidence of co-ordination. I'm really going to put you all to the test... because explaining on here is not getting anywhere... so i'll make a real example.. and then the earth community can judge you all for how you respond. I hope to see the correct analysis and reaction... otherwise earth shrinks. You care about this game, start listening to the players before they leave for good and then you are scratching your head why only 60 play express with 15 of those being bots.


Maybe it might sink in soon... just maybe

Or you can deliberately skirt the rules and kill someone and watch them leave the game or never try express again, like you just did. Well played, sir. I guess you accomplished it for us?

This is a SOLO server. SOLO doesn't mean 'solo as long as you're in gdi, but complete and utter free-for-all anarchy if you're not'.

Personally, I think all countries on this server should be opted-in to GDI from the start, and there should be a very clear page explaining how GDI functions on this server, and why it's important. Those of you who have been playing here for a while know the drill, and what happens if you forget to join, but mistakes still happen. As fordy said, you shouldn't basically lose your entire week due to forgetting to join gdi because some asshole enjoys preying on those that do every week.

[ Irrelevant ]

How do we determine if it was two solo players acting completely independently, or two players acting in concert? If you can come up with a surefire way of determining that, I would LOVE to hear it.

And yeah, as I said, I think all countries should be opted in from the start. That would be acceptable to me.

Heres the problem, you can already band together on team, alliance and ffa.

Solo means by yourself. The game has a balance. 3 and 3.

[ Irrelevant ]

[ Irrelevant ]

Opting in for gdi would only make people ask for changes to how gdi works. See>tourney

There really is only one balance and thats having people moderate the server. To keep things in line. Express is supposed to be a stepping stone for beginners(from my understanding)

Is easier to learn how things work with faster and more turns.

In my eyes there is no difference in a gdi country and non gdi. I don't understand why you keep beating this to death.


There will never be a set of rules everyone likes. The moderating has been pretty damn consistent on the servers i help watch over. While we all may not agree with rules, we understand why they exist. Most rules exist to protect EVERYONE from people who want to abuse the game and how each individual server operates.

[ Irrelevant ]

Again, i see no difference in how rules should be followed given gdi/non gdi

I will never advocate saying hey, jist because you are non gdi you should be treated differently and anyone can do as they please with as many ppl as possible

also

primary/express are the same gdi rules. if i am not mistaken

thats the reason i said if u force people into gdi, it'll be like tourney

[ Irrelevant ]

from: bstrong86
to: Netsquash
----------------------- Original Message -----------------------
Heres the deal and only deal.

After talking with another mod, we are giving you one pass. You just used it. Anymore, will result in your deletion of country(s)

---------------------------------------------------------------

Heres the deal

You guys need to have more discussions about the situation. Clearly you are wrecking the spirit of the game with your POV. I appreciate that you are trying to play the middle road from your aggressive one sided argument by not deleting me.... however..... when all is said and done... you will prob delete me once or twice until I make my point.


If you think this will shut me down... it won't. Far as i'm concerned I have respected the rules. You know 100% i'm not coordinating as it was clear that I was going for kills on my own within the confines of the game. Oh, and also waited way beyond 2 hours and it was 70-90 hits for the kill. So don't know how I am out of line? Another double standard, please explain.


Time for the mods to start listening to the players... instead of "im right, you're wrong... end of story."


Maybe a Poll of all current players to vote on the issue? Wouldn't that just settle this argument once and for all? Then you can say, yup we have it right.. or no we need to adjust our modding and deletion based on what players are saying.


Or maybe you will continue to ignore the players and not have this healthy discussion?


I won't fling name calling or the silly kid nonsense anymore... I was just very upset at how poorly you and your team has been handling this. You are all wrecking the express server by being ignorant of the ongoing cry of what is really a scandal. Instead of being the supporter of the game to hold it to the high standards and helping it evolve, a team dictatorship is basically in effect sticking to the old ways.


Ball is in the mod's court... I will "line step" until I make my point. The Mod powertrip over the grey zone is going to end here once and for all. Evidence/correlation based deletion. Not assumption based deletion.

Again going to stress


NO GDI = Welcome to the JUNGLE. You assume the risks and rewards of being in the jungle.


Will be copying and pasting to the forum thread FYI. Again, I will let all of the mods be judged by their actions. Time to be held accountable folks. I hope you were true to your word at the start of your message. (I believe you.... still going to hold you to a high standard)